An Interview With Candice Georgiadis
Treat your consumption of media like food. Take time to sort out what is nutritious and healthy, and what is junk. Stick to a healthy regimen. Just like food, the worst thing you can do is overconsume. Generally, this can even be true with healthy food if we eat way more than we need. It may make us feel good for a few minutes, but it makes us total addicts and destroys us in the long-term. So tread lightly when you open that app or log in to scroll mindlessly. Pay attention to how you are feeling when you reach for that like button and most importantly, why you are actually doing this. Here, less is better.
As a part of my series about “How To Develop Mindfulness And Serenity During Stressful Or Uncertain Times”, I had the pleasure of interviewing Ray Jolicoeur.
Ray Jolicoeur is an entrepreneur and meditation instructor living in Brooklyn, NY. Ray’s journey into mindfulness began almost twenty years ago and he has since completed over 500 hours of advanced teacher training. He is the founder of renoo, a line of mindfully made meditation goods for the modern home.
Thank you so much for doing this with us! Our readers would love to “get to know you” a bit better. Can you share with us the backstory about what brought you to your specific career path?
Strangely enough, stress and worry led me to launch renoo.
I started my business career working for large Fortune 500 companies — one of the largest banks in Canada, then America’s largest food company, and then the world’s second-largest spirits company. While I enjoyed some level of success in the corporate world, the excitement of entrepreneurship seemed more appealing, so I set out on my own. Through this first private venture, I created an energy drink. The drink was very successful, and the company ultimately went public.
Looking back, I see that I created that drink in part for myself — I thought more energy was the solution to a successful life. I valued activity over stillness. I spent hours, days, nights, years doing and hardly ever being. Fifteen years later, I found that I had nothing to show for my relentless toiling. Instead, I felt like years of my life had gone missing. I had worked so hard, exhausted so much energy, achieved success, and still true prosperity seemed just one step out of reach. The constant quest for success ultimately took its toll. When there was no money and no fame, I felt like a loser. When there was more money, I wanted fame. When there was fame, I wanted more money. Nothing was ever good enough to satisfy. I later found that this mentality was reinforced by the people and media I surrounded myself with at the time.
Finally, thankfully, I realized that I was living values that weren’t my own. I had gleaned them from others out of greed, insecurity, complacency and ignorance. Society’s definition of success is a phantom you can never quite catch. The moment I came to that realization, I knew I needed to let go of my company, of this venture that had sent me spiraling in the wrong direction, but letting go wasn’t easy, and the stress overwhelmed me. Ultimately, during this time of pivoting and anxiety, I found meditation and it reinforced the truth I’d found — that consuming energy was not the solution to a more successful life. It was the exact opposite. Being mindful — stopping and being still — was actually success in itself. There was no need for more or less.
I soon started training as a meditation instructor, went on numerous retreats, joined faculty at a fledgling New York studio, and launched renoo as a way to help others discover the power of mindfulness for themselves. As I leaned into the practice of sitting still, I inadvertently deepened long-time personal relationships that opened new horizons for me into the world of technology, proof that success doesn’t require energetically running like a hamster on a wheel.
Can you share the most interesting story that happened to you since you started your career?
A few years ago, at the height of my quest for success and fame, I would have probably answered that signing a partnership deal with Kanye West or my company being featured in a two-page article in the New York Times were highlights of my career.
Today, I can honestly say that this very moment, as I am answering this question, is the one that matters most. In fact, it’s the only moment I have influence over. How can it not be the most interesting? No need to compare it to anything before or after. If you look deeply into the present moment, not only will you see all other bits of time, but it will suddenly become the most fascinating.
What advice would you give to other leaders about how to create a fantastic work culture?
Kindness and deep listening are probably the most important skills to integrate into a work culture. Deep listening is won when you come to the conversation with no ulterior motives — without judgment. This is not an easy skill to cultivate — especially in a culture of fierce competition where we are taught from a young age to be hard on ourselves. It requires a lot of practice. However, once mastered, kindness and deep listening allow a leader to be present, employees to be at ease, and everyone to perform at their best for the benefit of the entire organization, the community, and the planet. Kindness allows people to be there for each other, instead of being pitted against each other, and encourages collaboration towards a common goal that benefits all stakeholders, not just a few.
It is also important to understand that bosses are not necessarily the leaders in an organization. Bosses can sometimes be leaders, but employees, colleagues, and customers can also be leaders. When you listen deeply, you will understand that leadership is simply a dual view of the world. It’s a comparative view that forces one to see the world through a distorted sense of reality. In essence, we all lead each other in various ways. Just like a flowing river. One ripple does not initiate the others that follow it. The ripples are all just one. It’s important to pay attention to this non-dual dynamic and truly be there — not just for others but also for yourself. When you are kind to yourself, when you listen to yourself with compassion, you are being kind to others as well. We are all here too briefly, so listen deeply and speak and act with kindness, no matter what you do.
Is there a particular book that made a significant impact on you? Can you share a story or explain why it resonated with you so much?
For the longest time, Confessions of an Advertising Man, by David Ogilvy, the advertising legend, and Losing my Virginity, by the entrepreneur Richard Branson, were books that would sit on my bedside table. They formed in many ways how I saw the world, through the lenses of marketing and entrepreneurship. And they still resonate with me today.
However, the classic You Are Here, by Zen Master Thich Nhat Hanh is probably the book that has influenced me the most. Its simplicity is astonishing, its life lessons innumerable. It starts by stating, “Every twenty-four hours is a tremendous gift to us.” And it ends with the sentence, “We should never forget that dying is as important as living.” At first, this may seem contradictory, or like a weird mind game, but what you realize in between these two sentences, is that there are no differences between life and death. They are in essence just one of the same, two sides to the same coin, if you will. They cannot exist without the other and in this sense, they are made-up concepts. There is no birth and there is no death, yet they both exist. That’s why I love studying Zen.
When I was a young teenager, I remember sitting on the floor in my bedroom drawing a line with my finger in the groove of the blue carpeting, as one would do in the sand. This line to me was how one lived, like a timeline of one’s life. Then I drew a line at a ninety-degree angle to the first line, and that to me was how one lived through space, a space line of sorts, where one physically travels through space during a life. The intersection was the here/now. Where life actually is.
This was a memorable moment in my life. It was the moment I realized on my own that only here/now really exists. The point on that axis only exists moment to moment because of all the conditions that are present at that infinitely small intersection. Yet, it is so small that it’s also the only thing in the room for each of us. Nothing else is actually there.
Reading the book, You Are Here, instantly brought me back to that childhood moment and to the realization that my pivot into meditation was a similar point in time. At the time of my journey into mindfulness as an adult, I initially thought I was forging a completely new path, yet reminded of that childhood moment, I knew that I’d begun clearing a trail years ago on that carpet, without even realizing it.
Ok, thank you for all that. Now let’s move to the main focus of our interview. From your experience or research, how would you define and describe the state of being mindful?
I am often asked what mindfulness is. Perhaps it’s easiest to begin by telling you what it’s not. It’s not some magical place that we try to reach. It’s not some trance or ecstatic state of blissful peace used to escape reality — like being on drugs or going for a day at the spa. It’s not about looking for tranquility or seeking success or even trying to be a better person — though you may find these things through the practice of mindfulness.
In many ways, mindfulness is the opposite of expending energy searching and seeking. It requires letting go of reaching for illusionary happiness on the outside. Mindfulness is almost like a superpower we all have, even though many of us don’t even know it. It’s being so connected energetically to the reality you are living in the moment that you lose the narratives you usually tell yourself and become that greater awareness. It is flooding yourself with love and kindness until you let go of all the storylines you’ve picked up over a lifetime — even from generations before you — and allow yourself to fully arrive in the present moment. Mindfulness is the ability we all have — anytime, anywhere — to recognize exactly what is happening second to second, without judgment. It’s being totally present to the experience that you are.
When you look deeply into any moment, it’s hard to be bored. If you are bored, you’re really not paying attention. When you look at a situation with fresh eyes and without judgment, with curiosity and awe, with vigor, you allow yourself to see life in a fascinating new way. Every moment of it becomes a fresh start. You find yourself fully there for your life and that of others. To me, that is the essence of mindfulness.
This might be intuitive to you, but it will be instructive to spell this out. Can you share with our readers a few of the physical, mental, and emotional benefits of becoming mindful?
Honestly, it’s difficult to address this question and not come across as a snake oil salesperson. Many studies show that regular mindfulness meditation practice leads to many benefits — lower blood pressure, better sleep, increased gray matter in the brain, increased general levels of happiness, dealing more skillfully with depression or addiction, fruitful and fulfilling social interactions, and perhaps even a desire to stop sabotaging your body with unwholesome consumption.
Contrary to what many believe, stress does not disappear from your life when you start practicing mindfulness, but your relationship to it certainly changes. Instead of being yanked around by stress, you harness its power. You feel its energy and have the ability to be more skillful when it arises. Your concentration increases, you experience prolonged periods of focus and clarity, you see through situations more clearly. I’m saying this from personal experience.
I see the most benefits of meditation in the emotional sphere. My students have echoed the same, saying they experience the greatest change emotionally. During long sits, I have discovered much about my emotions. Growing up, and even as an adult, I trained myself to ignore my feelings almost entirely. In fact, I was very clumsy with them. I was ashamed of certain emotions unless they matched what others thought I should be feeling. Now, I am so much more in tune with my emotions that I find them totally fascinating. I see a lot of subtlety and nuance where I saw none before.
Understanding our emotions better leads to a clearer understanding of the hidden landscape of any life situation. It also leads to a deeper understanding of others’ emotional landscapes and to recognizing how your own humanity is in fact so connected to that of other beings everywhere. This in turn makes us more skillful at relationships, and more valuable to our family and community.
Ok. Here is the main question of our discussion. The past 5 years have been filled with upheaval and political uncertainty. Many people have become anxious from the dramatic jolts of the news cycle. The fears related to the pandemic have only heightened a sense of uncertainty, anxiety, fear, and loneliness. From your experience or research what are five steps that each of us can take to develop mindfulness during such uncertain times? Can you please share a story or example for each.
The past five years have indeed been a roller-coaster, emotionally, physically, politically, and socially. I also like to think that trying times, like any difficulty in our life, bring a lot of good if only for the lessons we learn. Trying times are like forest fires — they can burn you dearly, but they also make room for new growth, so in this way they are essential and a very important part of life. I like the saying “you are where you need to be,” because your whole life is right there, right in front of you. There is no use in trying to escape it. Do not waste a single moment in the past or in some imaginary future or thinking how different it should be. So, be present. That is the first step.
Second, treat your consumption of media like food. Take time to sort out what is nutritious and healthy, and what is junk. Stick to a healthy regimen. Just like food, the worst thing you can do is overconsume. Generally, this can even be true with healthy food if we eat way more than we need. It may make us feel good for a few minutes, but it makes us total addicts and destroys us in the long-term. So tread lightly when you open that app or log in to scroll mindlessly. Pay attention to how you are feeling when you reach for that like button and most importantly, why you are actually doing this. Here, less is better.
Third, treat your mindfulness like your teeth. Practice at least every day — even twice a day, just like brushing your teeth. Go on retreats once in a while — just like you would go to a dentist appointment. And, just like taking care of your teeth, do it not only for yourself, but also for everyone in your life. It literally benefits everyone.
Fourth, walk mindfully every day for a few minutes. Walking mindfully means bringing your full awareness into the sensations of each step. Notice how the ground feels beneath the soles of your feet, how your weight shifts as you step forward, the grooves in the stairs you are slowly climbing, and the quality of the air that glides gently against your skin. Notice the colors you see with your eyes, the scent in the room or in the park, and how wonderful it is to be in the very place you are standing, appreciating every step with full awareness.
And finally, gratitude. Inviting gratitude into your life is like tapping into a superpower. The practice of gratitude can start the moment you wake up and set your feet next to the bed. As your feet touch the ground and make a connection to the Earth, ask yourself, “What am I grateful for this morning?” No need to force it, but see if you can come up with two or three things every morning. Even if they repeat themselves, that’s totally fine. You can also do the same in reverse at night before going to bed. “What am I grateful for that happened today?” This will generate a huge amount of resilience in your life and with practice, you will start connecting to positive aspects of your life you had never noticed or appreciated before. It’s a very powerful practice and is really transforming.
From your experience or research what are five steps that each of us can take to effectively offer support to those around us who are feeling anxious? Can you explain?
The first step may seem counter-intuitive: it’s to take good care of yourself. If you are calm and happy, others will feel it, and your calmness will be contagious. There is no need to say anything or do anything. Just be present. Your presence in itself is enough and can bring peace to your loved one. You are enough.
Have you ever noticed that whenever you are upset and someone next to you says something, it can make you even more upset? Especially if they tell you to calm down. There’s nothing worse to say to an anxious person than “calm down” or “don’t worry.” It will only add to their suffering. So, the second step you can take when someone around you is sad or angry or fearful is to just listen. I learned that from my mom. She is absolutely the world’s best listener and I’m so blessed for it. Being listened to can bring a lot of relief to someone going through a hard time. Sometimes we just want to be heard. Or better yet, we like to know that the other person truly understands what we are going through. This sharing of our suffering with loved ones, or even strangers, can be compared to having a lifeboat in the middle of the ocean during a storm as it helps us spread the weight of our pain throughout the boat so that we can stay afloat with our loved ones or larger community.
The third step in offering support to others is to let them know it’s ok to feel what they’re feeling. When I was young, I would hear grown-ups say that being emotional was not a good thing. I never really understood how anyone could not be emotional. How is that even remotely possible? It’s not like you want to be afraid or feel sad. You just do. It’s not under anyone’s control. And when you do feel unpleasant emotions, it’s important to be reminded that it’s ok. These emotions are not bad or anything to be ashamed of. There is really nothing wrong with you, quite the opposite.
I remember having a deep conversation with my dad at a restaurant when I was young. My parents were going through difficult divorce issues and I was crying and pleading with him to help make the situation better. Instead of telling me to stop crying, as he had done unsuccessfully many times in the past, he simply told me how wonderful it was that we could be having this difficult conversation and that he was proud to see how emotional I was about this matter and that this was indeed a wonderful moment that we were living. At the moment, I was perplexed by his comment. But it soon brought me great relief as I started feeling listened to and could indeed see the beauty of the energy we were both investing in this conversation. I stopped crying. And even had a few laughs after I realized that everyone in the restaurant was listening in. So, it’s not only okay to feel emotions, it’s actually a wonderful opportunity to bring the energy of mindfulness to these emotions and be curious about them, to try to understand where they originate and how we can use this energy of great power for good.
The fourth step is to let others know that you are here for them. Sometimes you don’t even have to say this, as per step one, but sometimes it’s helpful for you to say it, so it’s clear for you both. These words are very powerful and bring both comfort and support for both parties involved.
Finally, bring your attention to something joyful, simple, or beautiful, and share this with others. Laugh about it. That’s when pets come in handy. They can bring us a lot of joy because they don’t get caught up in our storylines and are always there for us as furry friends. Humor is part of this and helps in many tight situations. Humor helps us gain perspective, as there is nothing like a good laugh to bring you to your senses and back to the present moment.
What are the best resources you would suggest for someone to learn how to be more mindful and serene in their everyday life?
There are so many apps these days that promote mindfulness. I could name about a dozen off the top of my head, but I’ll mention only two: Ten Percent Happier and the Plum Village app. They are both rich in useful content and I use the Plum Village app to set an hourly mindfulness bell as a reminder to come back to the present moment.
Setting up a cozy meditation room or corner at home is also a wonderful way to keep mindfulness “top of mind.” That’s what we offer at renoo — the ability to incorporate time-tested mindfulness tools into the home in a style that is soothing and modern. Plus, with every cushion we sell, we donate to organizations that bring mindfulness to schools across the US.
In terms of books other than the ones I mentioned, I would highly recommend Zen Mind, Beginner’s Mind by Shunryu Suzuki. It’s full of wisdom and practical pointers.
The ultimate resource is simply you. Just SIT and enjoy your sitting. You will never learn from apps, books, courses, or teachers what you learn during a 20-minute sit. It’s free and it’s priceless.
Can you please give us your favorite “Life Lesson Quote”? Do you have a story about how that was relevant in your life?
There is a saying in Zen: “A fool sees himself as another, but a wise man sees others as himself.”
I find that 90% of the time, we are so tied up with our own story that we fail to see reality as it truly is. For many years, I was pursuing material success outside myself, looking for validation everywhere and chasing it at great cost to myself and others. While I have nothing against playful competition, pursuing happiness outside usually turns into greed, sadness, and even anger — and that’s exactly what happened to me. When it does, it’s time to pull back. No good can come out of that.
When we see someone acting in anger or being extremely unskillful, instead of blaming them and finding all the things that are wrong with them — thereby getting upset ourselves — we can simply look at them with compassion seeing that they are suffering the same as we do when we get angry or inefficient. This brings a fresh look at the situation and will likely change our view of that person. As we discussed earlier, the last few years have indeed been difficult to navigate politically in this country. Many people were, and still are, upset. But instead of blaming them or attacking those with different views, we can look at them with compassion and try to build a bridge between their life experience and ours. This is how seeing others as ourselves comes in handy.
At the other end of the spectrum, a lawyer once told me “Don’t make other people’s problems your problems.” That’s also good advice. And I’ve been trying to reconcile these two practical sayings ever since.
You are a person of great influence. If you could start a movement that would bring the most amount of good to the most amount of people, what would that be? You never know what your idea can trigger. 🙂
We all have more influence than we think. If there’s one thing that I would hope the pandemic has taught us while we were stuck at home, it is that stillness can be of great value.
As humans, we have built a pretty complicated world for ourselves. We have so many stories and conventions we tell ourselves socially, financially, physically, mentally, that we forget to just be still, enjoy being, and enjoy being together. We clearly undervalue this non-activity. When you look at gorillas in the rainforest, it’s interesting to see how they just sit there. Totally content. Rain or shine. Nowhere to go. Nothing to do. Just taking care of themselves and each other. As humans, I’m guessing we were likely like this at some point, but it’s a state of being we forgot about and instead, got ourselves very busy.
So my dream is for everyone to have a cozy meditation space at home they can enjoy. Call it the quiet room if you will. A space where we can all stop, breathe for a few minutes, and together begin again, consciously. Nowhere to go. Nothing to do. I hope someday you join us.
What is the best way our readers can follow you online?
website: rayjolicoeur.com
IG: @renoolife
Thank you for these fantastic insights. We wish you only continued success in your great work!
Ray Jolicoeur of renoo: How To Develop Mindfulness During Stressful Or Uncertain Times was originally published in Authority Magazine on Medium, where people are continuing the conversation by highlighting and responding to this story.