An Interview With Candice Georgiadis
We also need to act now to counteract the impact the pandemic has had on women who have been impacted by their congruence in sectors most impacted economically leading to income disruption as well as bearing the brunt of caring responsibilities during the crisis. Women in senior roles are now 1.5 times more likely than men to think about downshifting their careers or leaving the workforce due to COVID-19. The knock on effect if this is if women leaders leave the workforce, women at all levels stand to lose their most powerful allies and mentors.
As part of my series about “the five things we need to do to close the gender wage gap” I had the pleasure of interviewing Ruth Thomas.
Ruth Thomas Co-founder of Curo Compensation a HR technology company that help organizations prove their commitment to fair pay.
Thank you so much for joining us! Can you tell us the “backstory” that brought you to this career path?
When graduating I knew I wanted to understand more how people interacted with each other, and somewhat stereotypically began my career in Human Resources. Little did I know those two words “Human” and “Resources” could offer such a huge scope of experiences during a journey across three continents. I have always had an interest in IT, and my first HR generalist role was in a Retail Bank’s IT division when back then it was all mainframe and on premise technology, I worked in the Bank’s offices on the southbank of the river Thames in London that was built to withstand terrorist attacks and in bound planes with two mirrored computer rooms at either end of the building. Forward wind and my career took me traveling before returning to London as the advent of SaaS technology hit for HR. When I co-founded Curo back in 2010 this gave me the opportunity to explore how SaaS technology could transform traditional approaches to reward and drive fair pay and I have loved designing our innovative product strategy.
Can you share the most interesting story that happened to you since you began this career?
I have been privileged to have worked internationally across many different cultures which has resulted in some incredibly unique and challenging situations. I often say I should write a book about those interesting stories. I recall back in the 1990’s after negotiating wages with a Japanese news authority my success at leveraging my female status to make gains in our agreement was repaid by an interesting lunch where I was presented with some eating challenges, more reminiscent of I’m a Celebrity Get me out of here! Quid pro quo.
Can you share a story about the funniest or most interesting mistake you made when you were first starting? Can you tell us what lesson you learned from that?
Having just started working in Asia Pacific getting my head around the regions myriad of currencies and varied exchange rates, I managed to create a bonus notification for an US employee in Korea, mixing up Korean Won for USD awarding them a US$ 115 million bonus. They were kind enough to point the mistake out, but when I asked them to return the letter they said they were keeping it to frame and put in their bathroom for posterity!
Ok let’s jump to the main focus of our interview. Even in 2020, women still earn about 81 cents for every dollar a man makes. Can you explain three of the main factors that are causing the wage gap?
Sure, for clarity the 81 cents for every dollar metric you mention here is the median gender pay gap in the US. This compares across the US the average pay of men versus that of women. Still today many commentators will dispute that this pay gap is not real, and that when you look at women and men doing the same or comparable work they are actually paid equally. Sadly this is not always true, but either way it is important to understand why average pay gap exists.
- One key reason is occupational segregation and the fact that historically women have been excluded (or self-excluded) from certain industries and jobs which has meant that entire classes of occupations have typically fallen into the category of “women’s work” and have overtime been underpaid which has led to an systemic undervaluation of female work. Studies have shown that when women enter fields in greater numbers, pay declines — for the very same jobs that more men were doing before. You only have to look at Bureau of Labor Statistics data to see for example that median earnings of IT managers (mostly men) are 27 percent higher than HR managers (mostly women) and then at the other end of the wage spectrum, janitors (usually men) earn 22 percent more than maids and housecleaners (usually women).
- The other type of segregation that impacts the pay gap is Vertical Segregation (when men are most commonly found in higher grades and women in lower grades). This is due to bias and other barriers that impact progression. Bias can play out in a number of ways; in recruiting, in promotion, and performance assessment. Others will say that lack of progression is simply a reflection of the choices women make in the workplace. But are they really choices? Or are they simply the reality of the options available? For example, women “choose” to disrupt their careers and take time away from the workplace to bring up children. When the reality is there is a lack of paid shared parental leave that allows women and men to share childcare responsibilities equally. As a result, women suffer a significant pay penalty on annual earnings. A Women’s Policy Research study found that women who took just one year off from work had annual earnings 39 percent less than women who worked all 15 years between 2001 and 2015.
- Related to this is my third issue, it’s also stated that women choose to take “easy” jobs that earn less so they can balance work and caring responsibilities. Again, this is more a reflection of lack of workplace flexibility. A Harvard Business Review (HBR) study highlighted that a flexibility gap exists. In the study, 96% of employees said they need flexibility, yet only 47% reported having access to the types of flexibility they need — a gap of 54%. This gap is even larger for women, as only 34% of women have access to the flexibility they need. Obviously the last year of remote work and the move to hybrid work models is driving change here but we need to ensure change brings equal benefits to all.
Can you share with our readers what your work is doing to help close the gender wage gap?
We have created technology that helps employers prove their commitment to fair pay by analyzing pay equity gaps in order to create an equal and inclusive workplace. Traditionally done by external advisers our solution provides a more cost effective and flexible option, with greater ownership of your data and analysis in line with the reality of an agile business world.
Can you recommend 5 things that need to be done on a broader societal level to close the gender wage gap. Please share a story or example for each.
- At a societal level I would start with looking at how to break down the segregation that confines women to lower-paying occupations and workplaces. Whether this is by education, by encouraging women into STEM roles, or by increasing awareness and cultural change that comparable work should be valued equally.
- Then looking at things like affordable childcare, which makes it easier for women to remain in the workforce, paid sick days and paid family leave, which strengthens the connection of caregivers to the workplace, so women can maintain their earning power and share parental responsibilities, thereby lessening the pay penalty for motherhood.
- Related to this is opening up flexible working to both men and women in senior jobs. This too enables women to maintain their earning power and facilitates the sharing of the day to day responsibility for looking after children between both parents.
- We also need to act now to counteract the impact the pandemic has had on women who have been impacted by their congruence in sectors most impacted economically leading to income disruption as well as bearing the brunt of caring responsibilities during the crisis. Women in senior roles are now 1.5 times more likely than men to think about downshifting their careers or leaving the workforce due to COVID-19. The knock on effect if this is if women leaders leave the workforce, women at all levels stand to lose their most powerful allies and mentors.
- The term patriarchy can be an emotive word, but historically the working world was originally created by men, yet women today hold 50% of American jobs. A shift in mindset is needed to acknowledge that women simply trying to ‘fit’ into a man’s world is not equality. We need society and the workplace to be an equal environment on all fronts.
If you could inspire a movement that would bring the most amount of good to the most amount of people, what would that be? You never know what your idea can trigger. 🙂
I think I would take inspiration from this year’s International Women’s Day campaign of ‘Collective Individualism’ and that is to make one choice in the coming week that helps progress gender equality. ‘Collective Individualism’ works on the belief that we are all parts of a whole. Our individual actions, conversations, behaviors and mindsets can have an impact on our larger society. Collectively, we can make change happen. Collectively, we can each help to create a gender equal world. So if we each made one positive choice this week that in its own small way progressed gender equality… be it a new hire choice, a pay decision, a choice to grant for flexible working, a choice as a business leader to promote a gender equality strategy — imagine the impact?
Can you please give us your favorite “Life Lesson Quote”? Can you share how that was relevant to you in your life?
As an advocate for equality it would have to be “Look at the world through someone else’s eyes”. To truly understand participation and outcomes by different groups and address disparities, including race, ethnicity, gender, and we need to understand each other’s lived experiences to see that that it is not equal for all.
We are very blessed that some of the biggest names in Business, VC funding, Sports, and Entertainment read this column. Is there a person in the world, or in the US whom you would love to have a private breakfast or lunch with, and why? He or she might see this, especially if we tag them. 🙂
I think in terms of someone who is trailblazing success with an empathetic style of leadership and demonstrating the fact motherhood should not be a barrier to leading a fulfilling career (if that is your choice) is Jacinda Ardern, who at the age of 37, became as the world’s youngest female head of government as Prime Minister of New Zealand and then in 2018, she became only the second elected prime minister in the world to give birth while in office. Her decisive leadership style and clear communication have steered her country through the Covid-19 crisis.
This was very inspiring. Thank you so much for joining us!
Ruth Thomas of Curo Compensation: 5 Things We Need To Do To Close The Gender Wage Gap was originally published in Authority Magazine on Medium, where people are continuing the conversation by highlighting and responding to this story.